[30] Zhaozhou Personally Met Nanquan

[30] Case:

A monk asked Zhaozhou, “I have heard that the Venerable personally met Nanquan. Is that so?” [Hearing it a thousand times is not as good as seeing it once. Za! The brows part into the shape of the character 八.]

Zhaozhou said, “Zhenzhou produces large radish heads.” [Supporting heaven and bracing earth. Cutting nails and severing iron. An arrow passes beyond Silla. If one sees cheeks behind the head, do not associate with him.]

This monk, too, was a long-practicing veteran; there was no lack of insight in his question. But Zhaozhou was a master craftsman, so he answered, “Zhenzhou produces large radish heads.” It may be called tasteless talk that stops people’s mouths. This old fellow was very much like a thief who takes without lifting a finger: the moment you open your mouth, he replaces your eyes. If one is an exceptionally perceptive and spirited person, then amid the flash of a struck flint and the blaze of lightning, as soon as one hears it raised, one immediately springs up and goes on. But if one pauses to think and deliberate, one cannot avoid losing one’s life.

Cheng, the sage commentator of Jiangxi, called this “answering east when asked west.” It may be called not answering the question, so one does not fall into his painted circle. But if you understand it in this way, how could that do? Master Yuanlu said, “This is an oblique glance, included among the Nine Belts.” If you understand it in this way, you have not even dreamed of it, and you further burden Zhaozhou. Some say that Zhenzhou has always produced large radish heads, and everyone under heaven knows it.

Everyone under heaven knows that Zhaozhou once studied under Nanquan. Yet this monk further asked, ‘I have heard that Your Reverence personally met Nanquan. Is this so?’ Therefore Zhaozhou replied to him, ‘Zhenzhou produces large radish heads.’” That has no connection at all!

If one does not understand it in any such way, then how, after all, should one understand it? His household itself has a road that reaches through the night. Have you not seen how a monk asked Jiufeng, “I have heard that Your Reverence personally met Yanshou. Is this so?” Jiufeng said, “Has the wheat ripened before the mountain?” This precisely corresponds to Zhaozhou’s answer to this monk; they are altogether like two iron hammers without holes.

Old Zhaozhou was a man with nothing to do. You ask lightly, and he immediately replaces your eyes. If you are one who knows that there is [something], chew it carefully and swallow it. If you are not one who knows that there is, it is like swallowing a date whole.

Zhenzhou produces large radishes. [Everyone under heaven knows it. Avoid speaking of it. Each time it is raised, it is new each time.]

Patch-robed monks throughout the world take it as a model. [Yet it is not like this. Who needs these idle, lengthy words?]

They know only from ancient times to the present, [Half open, half closed. Like hemp, like millet. In ancient times it was not like this; now it is not like this.]

To distinguish the white swan from the black crow. [The whole mechanism stands forth sharply. The long are long of themselves; the short are short of themselves. Those who recognize it are precious; there is no need to distinguish.]

Thief! Thief! [Hey! It is nothing else: carrying a cangue while filing a complaint.]

Patch-robed monks have once grasped the nostrils. [They have already passed through. Split! Turn!]

If you take “Zhenzhou produces large radish heads” as his ultimate standard saying, you are already mistaken. The ancients led people by the hand up a high mountain, yet could not avoid the laughter of onlookers. Everyone knows this to be an ultimate standard saying, but ultimately they do not know where its ultimacy lies. Therefore Xuedou said, “Patch-robed monks throughout the world take it as a model.”

“They know only from ancient times to the present, to distinguish the white swan from the black crow.” Although they know that people today answer in this way and people of old answered in this way, when have they ever distinguished black from white? Xuedou said that one must still go into that flash of flint and lightning to distinguish the white swan from the black crow.

The koan has by this point been versified. Xuedou brings forth his own meaning and, from the lively, vital place, further tells you: “Thief! Thief! Patch-robed monks have once grasped the nostrils.” The Buddhas of the three times are also thieves, and the patriarchs of successive generations are also thieves. They are skilled at thievery, replacing people’s eyes. Without making the slightest move, Zhaozhou alone is acknowledged. Tell me: where was Zhaozhou skilled at thievery? Zhenzhou produces large radish heads!

The Blue Cliff Record by Chan Master Foguo Yuanwu, Volume Three (End)

[Yongshou Tongzi]: Naturally, the eyebrows part into the shape of the character 八!

Teacher, what does “carrying a cangue while filing a complaint” mean? I could not find it.

[lvm]: There is also “eyes like bright stars”; he simply did not write it down.

“Carrying a cangue while filing a complaint” means wearing a cangue, an instrument of punishment, while going to cry injustice and file a case. Before you have even filed the complaint, you have already been judged guilty. Can you still win the case?

Have you seen anyone carrying a cangue while filing a complaint?

[Yongshou Tongzi]: Teacher, I also do not know why nostrils point downward.

[lvm]: Ask Elder Sister Wang of East Village.

[Sudhana]: Elder Sister Wang of East Village has sent word:

Tell Yongshou to pull his own nose and imitate a cow’s moo twice.

[lvm]: ^o^ (Elder Sister Wang says: If the nostrils pointed upward, that would be a monster.)

[Yongshou Tongzi]: Moo~~, moo~~~

Sudhana’s moo is really not easy to imitate! Hahaha.

[DL]: Teacher, what is a thief who takes without lifting a finger? And what does it mean to replace someone’s eyes?

[lvm]: A thief who takes without lifting a finger is one who eats for free and takes without paying.

To replace your eyes means to have you look at it from another angle.

[Little Junior Brother]: What does this phrase, “replaces your eyes,” mean? Eye surgery?

[lvm]: Nowadays we call it: looking at it from another angle.

[Little Junior Brother]: Oh~~, then what is this passage saying?

“Old Zhaozhou was a man with nothing to do. You ask lightly, and he immediately replaces your eyes. If you are one who knows that there is, chew it carefully and swallow it. If you are not one who knows that there is, it is like swallowing a date whole.”

[lvm]: Put this plainly and it seems easy to understand, but its flavor is lost:

“Old Zhaozhou was a man with nothing to do. You ask lightly, and he immediately replaces your eyes. If you are one who knows that there is, chew it carefully and swallow it. If you are not one who knows that there is, it is like swallowing a date whole.” — Put this way, it has inexhaustible flavor.

“Old Zhaozhou was a man with nothing to do, while the questioner had something on his mind that he could not dissolve. The moment he asked, Zhaozhou cleared it away from the standpoint of having nothing to do.

If the questioner were one ‘who knows that there is,’ he would carefully savor Zhaozhou’s words and suddenly discover: it is precisely because I myself am not empty and pure, and still have unfinished business, that I ask such a question! He might then go further and untie the knot in his mind. But if the questioner were not one ‘who knows that there is,’ he would stubbornly cling to his own standpoint of ‘having something to do’ and refuse to understand Zhaozhou’s words from the standpoint of ‘having nothing to do.’ Then he would not understand Zhaozhou’s meaning. Even if he reluctantly accepted it, he would merely swallow it whole and would not gain genuine benefit.” — To explain it this way is to lose the flavor at once.

[Little Junior Brother]: What is a “person who knows that there is”? Looking at it from another angle, such a person is “empty and pure.”

[lvm]: When facing someone attached to blank emptiness, use the term “a person who knows that there is”; when facing someone attached to existence, use the term “an empty and pure person.”

Do not make too much of the literal wording; rely on the meaning, not the words.

[Lay Practitioner Zhaoguang]: Teacher, please first forgive this student’s presumption. I do not know whether the following thought is correct.

I think these were originally the plain words of the ancients. Why do modern people now read flavor into them, and what use is such flavor? Could this cause students to overlook the context and, when reading koans and recorded sayings, add another measure of attachment? Would it not be better to let everyone understand them first?

Again, I ask the teacher to forgive my offense of disrespect!

[lvm]: Hahaha! Realizing is good; understanding is not good.

[Lay Practitioner Zhaoguang]: So this is where the flavor lies! Teacher, you are tremendously formidable!

Once again I am being presumptuous. I have never known what I ought to ask. Today my scalp itches terribly, and I want to scratch it :)

[lvm]: Then scratch it.

Yet, “scratching is precisely not scratching”—that is better.

[Yongshou Tongzi]: “[lvm]: Realizing is good; understanding is not good.” Teacher, it would be even better if one both understood and realized.

[lvm]: “Understanding” is used in relation to others; “realizing” is one’s own benefit.

When you meet a fellow traveler on the Way, there is no harm in crossing Tiger Creek Bridge together. ^o^

[Wuliaoshi]: Teacher, what does Tiger Creek Bridge symbolize? Is there some allusion?

[lvm]: Look up information on Master Huiyuan and you will understand.

(Tiger Creek is the name of a stream. It lies before Donglin Monastery on Mount Lu, south of Jiujiang City, Jiangxi Province. It is said that Dharma Master Huiyuan of the Jin dynasty lived there and never crossed the stream when seeing off guests. Whenever he did cross it, tigers would roar; hence the name Tiger Creek.)

[Yongshou Tongzi]: Teacher, what is an “ultimate standard saying,” and what does “patch-robed monks throughout the world take it as a model” mean?

[lvm]: It cannot be attached to or grasped; there is nowhere to get hold of it. Therefore it is called an ultimate standard saying.

Everyone knows this is an ultimate standard saying, but ultimately they do not know where its ultimacy lies. Therefore Xuedou said, “Patch-robed monks throughout the world take it as a model.”

[fy]: Teacher, you know; I know.

[lvm]: How about changing that to, “You do not know, and neither do I”?

[fy]: This is true knowing!

[lvm]: Therefore it is said: it belongs neither to knowing nor to not knowing.

It is also said: knowing is not knowing; not knowing is knowing.

[Yongshou Tongzi]: Teacher, regarding “The ancients led people by the hand up a high mountain, yet could not avoid the laughter of onlookers,”

does this mean that the ancients communicated in a wordless place, while bystanders laughed because they could not understand?

【lvm】: Yes! Have you not heard: “When the wondrous Dharma is taught to fools, they laugh loudly at it.”

【Xinming】: “If they do not laugh at it, it is not enough to be called the Way.”

When people of the highest capacity hear the Way, they diligently practice it;

when people of middling capacity hear the Way, it seems at times to exist and at times not;

when people of the lowest capacity hear the Way, they laugh loudly at it. If they do not laugh at it, it is not enough to be called the Way.”

【Ban】: Teacher, what does “split” mean? And what does “turn” mean?

【lvm】: Split—change a person's eyes; turn—do not interfere with their hands and feet.

【Ban】: Oh, these two characters are used so wonderfully.

Teacher, if someone asked you, “Have you personally seen Master Yuanyin?” how would you answer?

【lvm】: Then I would answer, “Just like you.”

【Ban】: I prostrate to a true spiritual friend.

【lvm】: Ha ha! Better not slander me.

【Ban】: I prostrate.

【lvm】: Another spoonful, indeed!